Too Many Foriegners in the NCAA?
I came across this interesting article from Tom Fitzgerald of the San Francisco Chronicle titled Foreign flavor in NCAA tennis is too rich for some:
http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/chronicle/archive/2007/05/...
The article spurs the debate about foreign players in the NCAA, talking to coaches of all the top programs in Cali.
Here are some interesting quotes from the article:
Jan Brogan, the women's coach at Cal, points out that her scholarship money comes from the athletic department, which isn't funded by tax money. Schools like Cal have no choice if they want to compete at the highest level, she said. "My job is to consistently produce a team that's going to compete for the (national) title,'' she said. "If I only recruited Californians, we'd never be any good. We'd be No. 50 maybe. If I only recruited Americans, which I've tried, we'd never be in the top 16.''
"I'm not sure coaches have a choice,'' Stanford women's coach Lele Forood said. "You have a loaded situation: You're supposed to win, but I'm sure you couldn't find enough female (U.S.) players for all the positions available. No matter what they say about graduation rates, if you're not winning, you're not going to keep your job.''
"A lot of the foreign players graduate on time,'' coach John Whitlinger said. "They're not just rent-a-players." He pointed to UCLA's Benjamin Kohlloeffel of Germany, who won the 2006 NCAA title and will graduate this year. However, he's also 25 years old, having played in pro tournaments before he entered college in the United States. In years past, the advanced age of many foreign players has been a bone of contention, and the NCAA has taken steps to lessen the age disparity. In 2004, it instituted the "20-year-old rule,'' which means that for each year you play in a pro tournament after your 20th birthday, you have to sit out a year and lose a year of eligibility.
"Instead of focusing on foreign players being the problem, let's look at American tennis,'' said Cal men's coach Peter Wright, also chairman of the NCAA men's tennis committee. "Foreign juniors have an advantage because they can play with their next peer group. In this country, they can't.''
That is, NCAA rules in general prohibit college players from playing against high school players. "The NCAA rules have hurt junior development,'' Wright said.
Personally, I am not against foreign players. Foreign players do a lot more good than harm as a whole. At the same time, people forget tennis is such an international sports. When you compared tennis to football or baseball, of course a majority of the kids will be American. Tennis is a very global sport.
http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/chronicle/archive/2007/05/...
The article spurs the debate about foreign players in the NCAA, talking to coaches of all the top programs in Cali.
Here are some interesting quotes from the article:
Jan Brogan, the women's coach at Cal, points out that her scholarship money comes from the athletic department, which isn't funded by tax money. Schools like Cal have no choice if they want to compete at the highest level, she said. "My job is to consistently produce a team that's going to compete for the (national) title,'' she said. "If I only recruited Californians, we'd never be any good. We'd be No. 50 maybe. If I only recruited Americans, which I've tried, we'd never be in the top 16.''
"I'm not sure coaches have a choice,'' Stanford women's coach Lele Forood said. "You have a loaded situation: You're supposed to win, but I'm sure you couldn't find enough female (U.S.) players for all the positions available. No matter what they say about graduation rates, if you're not winning, you're not going to keep your job.''
"A lot of the foreign players graduate on time,'' coach John Whitlinger said. "They're not just rent-a-players." He pointed to UCLA's Benjamin Kohlloeffel of Germany, who won the 2006 NCAA title and will graduate this year. However, he's also 25 years old, having played in pro tournaments before he entered college in the United States. In years past, the advanced age of many foreign players has been a bone of contention, and the NCAA has taken steps to lessen the age disparity. In 2004, it instituted the "20-year-old rule,'' which means that for each year you play in a pro tournament after your 20th birthday, you have to sit out a year and lose a year of eligibility.
"Instead of focusing on foreign players being the problem, let's look at American tennis,'' said Cal men's coach Peter Wright, also chairman of the NCAA men's tennis committee. "Foreign juniors have an advantage because they can play with their next peer group. In this country, they can't.''
That is, NCAA rules in general prohibit college players from playing against high school players. "The NCAA rules have hurt junior development,'' Wright said.
Personally, I am not against foreign players. Foreign players do a lot more good than harm as a whole. At the same time, people forget tennis is such an international sports. When you compared tennis to football or baseball, of course a majority of the kids will be American. Tennis is a very global sport.
Tags: college tennis, jan brogan, john whitlinger, lele forood, ncaa, peter wright
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Mike Schmertz on
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Lets be honest, without foreigners in college tennis the level of college tennis would be pretty poor. If it was only Americans in college tennis many would start being ranked high in the ITA rankings and start to get even bigger egos than all American tennis players already have. That is the problem with American tennis these days...all these junior snobs have the biggest egos for no reason...so back to the foreigners, although you can argue that yea they take American scholarships away, without them there would be such little competition...look at Baylor for example...what top American junior would in their right mind would want to go to Waco, Texas? Powerhouses like Georgia and Stanford would get the top American juniors each year and it would be the same teams battling for the national titles. Having foreigners in the college game helps "even out" the teams and makes everything more competitive. There is not dening this major argument so I would like to see what others have to say against that.
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Permalink Reply by Andrew Demasson on -
Okay, I understand that Baylor isn't first choice for most American juniors, but what about Cal Berkeley? The academic reputation is excellent, prestige is high and it is one of the most recognisable American universities internationally (above places like Stanford, Texas, Miamia, Illinois and Georgia). So, why does Cal struggle to attract more of the big names in American junior tennis (yes, they have Stewart and just recruited Katsarov but that's it). Given that most kids, including the top juniors, won't go on to have a pro tennis career and will, to some degree, rely on their degree, why not target a place like Berkeley?
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yes, i can understand this Cal Berkley situation but it is still about whether foreigners should be in college tennis, and i have to go back to my point that if foreigners werent in college tennis it would be the same type schools battling because all the top juniors want to go to them...
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Permalink Reply by Bobby Cameron on
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I personally like having foreigners in college tennis. Yes, it makes it tougher, and yes they take american's scholarships. The fact is that without foreigners in college tennis many teams would cease to exist. College tennis maybe would go back to the old days where harvard and yale were some of the top tennis schools because players would going for the degree, not the tennis because there wouldn't be enough depth to even get a decent practice in on most teams. I don't know the exact figures but theres somewhere between 100-300 division one schools that would have to fill 6 positions and that doesn't even include d-2 and d-3 and naia. It would be interesting to know the exact figures. Without foreigners, many teams would cease to exist.
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Permalink Reply by 10sbaum on
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Why not place a limit of how many foreigners can play on the team, or assign a certain percentage of how much scholarship money can be allocated to foreigners. You forget, some guys forgo college all together in the U.S. and maybe they should, but for the most part the kids who forgo college in the U.S. could make the level of play that much stronger throughout the ranks. Maybe they should mandate that we play 1 or 2 years of college, and then allow kids to play pro tournaments and allow them to play against college kids prior to college, knowing that once they graduate high school they would have to go to college and at least play 1 or 2 years. That would increase the level of play throughout the U.S., give more opportunity to improve as a junior, and if mandated to play 1 or 2 years would at least keep a consistent level of good american juniors in college. There might be a drop in level of play for at least a few years but, I'd say withing a few years kids would step up to the plate and we would be churning out some better players in the U.S. on a more consistent basis that could compete in the pro ranks. It is a bit of a double standard, having played college tennis myself, as a senior at 22 I was playing a Brazilian freshman at 23 who has accepted money and has an ATP ranking. I mean where does the clock start for these guys... If I would have stayed out of college for 4 years, I would not have had any eligibility left. Im sure there were/are a lot of guys like myself that feel like they were shafted because a coach was holding out on another foreign player to fill a spot, and therefore we get left by the wayside and sort of settle with some college that is a dead end as far as furthering your tennis. I am not against foreign players at all, but lets tip the scales back in the American kids favor. I've seen a lot of foreigners with some hyped up reputation as the next great player, the coach goes hook line and sinker for the guy, throws him a full ride and he turns out to be a dud, and leaves after one year, which was another opportunity that some American could have had to play at the school.
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Permalink Reply by ini ghidirmic on
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totally agree. first, ncaa rules should be enforced across the board, not just against american players. second, the ncaa should institute a new rule making it a presumption that if a player has ATP points said player accepted prize money (of course, the player should be allowed to prove that he only accepted cash for expenses). third, if these things happen and you still can't get a scholarship... guess what? you probably ain't good enough.
another problem is that so many juniors have their minds set on handful of schools (UWash, USC, UCLA, etc.) and they forget that there are a lot of other decent choices out there. i was working with some kids down in san diego and they mentioned that they wanted to either go to, and play for (on scholarship, nonetheless), USC or UCLA. i explained to them that because of their level that maybe they should set their sights on fresno state, boise state, byu, etc. they looked at me like "Boise?! Fresno?! what the hell's in Fresno?". but that's the american attitude. we're raised to believe (yeah, me inclusive) that we're entitled to have everything we want simply because we exist. that's absolute horses#!t. if you're lucky, you get to have a few things in life. if improving in tennis is your goal, you shouldn't think twice about going to the ends of the world to do so (after all, isn't that what foreigners are doing?).
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Permalink Reply by Christopher Madden on
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I have to disagree with the comment that foriegn players are necessary for a national title, look at Illinois in 03 or stanford in their prime. I'm not saying that by any means it is easy you have to consitantly get top recruits and there is the risk of failure in that losing with americans can get a coach fired while winning with all foriegners doesn't
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Permalink Reply by Gregory on
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The big picture problem for me is that if you do not limit the forieign players getting schlarships then ultimately you will hurt American junior tennis. If the opportunities do not exist for all but the top US players then those same young athletes will gravitate toward sports where the scholarship opportunities are the greatest. The financial output required to train a top junior to compete against the top Forieign players will often be in excess of the value of the scholarship. There is a reason why the european basketball leagues limit the number of Americans to 2 per roster and that is to not harm the development of their own players. It seams to have worked pretty well there.
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Permalink Reply by John Van on
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I couldn’t agree more. I think something has to be done to limit the number of foreign players per team. I think it absolutely hurts American Junior tennis. I also think it just kills any kind of enthusiasm for the college team. For instance, I’m an alumnus of Georgia State University. I’m also a tennis fanatic. You might think that I would be very interested in the GSU tennis team. But there’s not one American on the team. It’s a collection of South Americans and Europeans. What does that have to do with GSU or the state of Georgia? Frankly, I couldn’t care less about that team. I’ve taken a look at the soccer at GSU. You would think that soccer is even more an international sport than tennis and one that foreign players would be even more dominant in. But the soccer team is 13 Americans, mostly from Georgia, and 6 foreign players. Anyone could live with that ratio. Another example is Valdosta State in South Georgia, last year’s division 2 national champions. They are another collection of foreign players. Go Valdosta State!!!!!!! Those are two examples from the state of Georgia, which especially in the Atlanta area, is a hotbed of junior tennis. I don’t think it’s the coaches’ fault. I’m sure they feel like they won’t be able to compete without all those foreign players because all the other schools are doing it too. What college tennis is becoming is the top 100 American gradates each year distributed to the top division one schools and then 95% of the remaining players at all divisions nation-wide being made up of foreign players. I think if this situation continues that small program college tennis will eventually die from utter lack of interest. I also think that we’re really short changing the junior HS grads ranked between 101 and say 500 or 600. Some of those players if given the chance to develop in college could become great players. But I guess we’re not ever going to get a chance to know.
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Permalink Reply by Alvin Cheng on -
I know that this post is really really late but I just joined underground tennis. As a small college coach, let me please explain this situation. But before that, please understand where I come from. I am originally Malaysian. I was raised in Malaysia and came to America to play college tennis in pursuit of a better future. And honestly, my life has been really blessed by this country and it is time for me to repay by working and giving to others. This is now my third year of college coaching. I coach at a small school. It is Coker College in Hartsville, SC. We have 650 students. The town is about 7000 people. I have a problem recruiting. My first year, I couldn't find one single American kid to play for me. They say, "Coker who?" It is really frustrating. So I had to default to foreigners. One Ecuadorian, one Canadian and one Brit. As I kept recruiting last year, I managed to network with a few more local players and coaches. I ended up bringing in 5 American kids, South Carolina nonetheless. And this year, I managed to sign one more SOuth CArolina kid.
And here is my point. There are two problems with college tennis right now. American kids and American Athletic Directors! They both conflict. The ADs want to win. They say, go out and get the best players you can find. Isn't that the whole idea of college athletics is to win? They do not care if the players are Americans or not. They want that championship.
American kids are the other reason. More than half the players I recruit thumb their nose at me. I don't hold much scholarships so I give partials. American kids seem to think that their value is a dollar amount on the schoalrship. They do not see the benefit of being on a team and learning leadership skills. And also prolonging their tennis careers four more years. The only reason that I have been succesful in recruiting American kids is because I had to work about 5 times harder than the other coaches. I am single and I can work long hours. I drive almost anywhere in SC to look for players. I go to a tournament almost every weekend. That is hard work. It is definitely easier to sit in an office and send emails to recruits in a foreign country. I know because I have done it. I had to do that my first year of coaching.
Most American kids do not understand that playing college tennis at a small school is not so bad. They get free equipment, free coaching and free court time. I have seen player after player choose to walk on at a Division 1 school and never make the team. After the first semester, they quit and start partying. I know that happens. Ask the coaches!!!
Guys, I recruit Americans and foreigners. Both are valuable to us. I have two Brits that play for me who are now members of society in America. One is a teaching pro at a public facility producing good college level players.
And I am another example. I came on a scholarship from a state school! I am grateful for it. I am gonna recruit Americans but if they refuse to come, I can't help it. I have to field a team.
Put yourself in our shoes. What would you do when kids say that you aren't good enough because you aint a Div 1 school and you see their life waste away? What would you do when your boss calls you in and ask you why you aint winning? "Uhh...sorry boss. I am recruiting American kids!" Would that be your answer?
Think about it and stop being so close minded!
And don't tell me I don't try recruiting American kids!!!!! I have been blamed for that. Look at my track record before you say that.
Thank you for allowing me this platform.
Alvin Cheng
Head Men's and Women's Tennis Coach
Coker College
Hartsville, SC
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Permalink Reply by 10isDad on
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To Mr. Cheng - What an awesome and well stated response. It's a nice change of pace from some of the various posts I've read on other message boards where emotion seems to run pretty high on this issue. I appreciate the time you took to write this.
I feel the high number of foreign players, especially in D1 tennis, should serve as a wake-up call. It should make US juniors want to train harder, not get defensive and demand their right to get a place on a team simply because they're American.
The only issue I don't like is when coaches basically flat out state that they won't look at any US players not ranked in the top 20/50, etc. My guess is they're missing out on some truly wonderful players that may not have had the means to compete in enough national tournaments to boost their ranking (travel, hotel, high entry fees, missed school, etc.)
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Coach Cheng,
I absolutely applaud your efforts to recruit Americans to your team. I checked out your team’s web site and saw that you are mostly American. One thing I would like to clarify from my earlier post is that I do not advocate not having any foreign players in college tennis. I would not have a problem with half foreign or even two thirds foreign players, but what is really frustrating is the number of teams that practically have no male American players. Except for a few tokens who almost never play, the practically all-foreign teams in Georgia include Valdosta State, Georgia Southern, Columbus State, Armstrong Atlantic, Augusta State and Georgia State. One notable exception seems to be Kennesaw State, which is just starting a men’s team for next year and seems to be recruiting Americans. I sure hope they’ll be successful with their Americans.
I do understand the coach’s problems with enticing Americans and with being competitive with Americans. Maybe that’s the whole crux of the problem, the Americans are just not good enough. There are a lot of boys and girls out there practicing a lot and playing loads of tournaments. Maybe American junior tennis will get better and the players will become more realistic about the schools they can go to. Let’s hope so, and again thanks for your efforts.
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